Kevin Roose被AGI攻击了为什么不呢？

今天我与新作"AGI纪事"的记者兼作者Kevin Roose交谈

Kevin Roose被AGI攻击了为什么不呢？

"AGI纪事"的作者和"机器神"的同机主在YouTube上进行全能和AI比赛。

凯文长期是纽约时报的记者和受欢迎的播客"硬叉"的主持人，但他和节目"Casey Newton"的朋友刚离开时报，开始全新技术播客机神，上星期发布。

Kevin和我谈到了发布机器之神，以及从《纽约时报》到独立创造者的感受——当然，我们谈到了这本书，这是一份出色的报导，它潜入各公司，以建立人工一般智能。

我想从Kevin那里得到一个感知报告这个故事的滋味，尝试和理解这些角色以及这个时刻，以及接下来的一切。 公平警告：但我想你们会发现这段对话是非常值得的。

好吧，凯文·鲁斯在AGI纪事，开始机器神，和AI从这里。 开始了

此次采访经过了轻度编辑，篇幅长而清晰。

Kevin Roose 你是《AGI纪事》的作者也是新的播客机器神的创始人和共同主播欢迎来到解码器。

谢谢你邀请我

我在听第一集的《机器之神》 你和凯西讨论过从技术上讲你拥有CEO的头衔

这是真的。 我赢了硬币翻转我们需要人当你像我们一样开公司的时候，你需要列出某人作为首席执行官，我想，当我们第一次丑闻不可避免地破灭时，想知道谁在国会面前拖走。 所以这就是我。

这很有趣，这意味着我不得不问你 the Decoder问题。

[笑声] 好吧，我说。.. 我当了5分钟的首席执行官

老实说，这跟大部分的CEO在节目。 他们似乎只做了五分钟。 我们一定会去的。

我想谈谈你的书它被称为AGI纪事。 这是一本详细报道的主要前沿实验室及其文化转变的书

让我们从机器神开始。 你是《纽约时报》的记者显然，我认为观众可能知道这一点，但你和我已经认识了很久。 我将说，自从我认识你以来，你成为YouTuber的欲望一直是头等大事。 你只是说，“我该怎么过去？” 我总是说，“跑啊，别这样做。” 但你还是做到了

你离开了《泰晤士报》，你开始自己的播客与我们的朋友凯西牛顿。 这是下一代非常受欢迎的播客"硬叉"，它非常出色。 我为你感到兴奋

Verge订户不要忘记，无论你在哪里得到播客，头在这里。 不是订户？你可以在这里注册。

你一直试图说服我从这件事上解脱出来

是的，我失败了。 完全失败了

不，我认为出于一些很好的原因，媒体公司长期以来对在YouTube或其他任何视频平台上都有些警惕。 都进去了的人不一定有好感因为有很多。..

是啊，他们偏好视频，也进入死亡，例行公事。

是的，你偏重于视频或者你浪费了一堆钱做一些不自费的事情。 因此，我认为这有一些结构性的经济原因，但我也认为

我尝试在YouTube上传播媒体，但我觉得这显然是目前世界上最重要的媒体平台。 新闻在历史上没有中心位置。

如果你把YouTube作为一个整体来看待，并试图评估其中的哪一部分是专用于你或我认为高质量的新闻

所以，我的任务的一部分就是破解这个问题，找出如何从经济角度和某种创造性角度来做YouTube和视频。 然后只是实验和做一些事情。

这不是一张需要上YouTube的相片。 所以我也希望让其他人加入一些格式。 但是，我看看 Verge 做了什么在那里。 我看看乔安娜·斯特恩和MKBHD这样的人在那里做了什么。 与文字或播客相比

Machine Gods是一个播客，你和NPR合作，我想谈谈。 但你认为它是YouTube的产品吗？

我们希望它成为视频第一。 这基本上意味着，我们将对它看起来的模样大加关心，而我们并非始终如此。 我们想给人们很多理由

但这是事情的方向。 现在不能做播客，因此，我们将尝试真正地拥抱它，并制作一个很好的版本，这就像两个中年的记者可以成功在YouTube上。

媒体的前途确实是中年记者向YouTube倾斜。 因为现在我正在制作更多视频，会很棒的。

离开和这样做的另一个原因——显然人们也知道我是凯西的朋友，我和你和他谈论了很长时间——就是AI的故事在这里。 有一个平台换位。 世界上有新公司，新人物，新思想要谈。 这很有趣，因为在这种情况下，你通常也会有媒体的转变。 我们讲故事的方式，或我们讲故事的格式，通常会随着我们谈论的东西

在这里，YouTube感觉自己是现存最坚实的媒体基础。 也拥有YouTube Shorts，现在你可以测试一切，包括自己的相貌。 但是，这是最相同的一个。 Instagram经历了一些巨大的改变感觉这将会继续发生

你是否觉得YouTube是最稳定的地方

没错我的意思是，很明显你从来没有想把你的所有鸡蛋在一个篮子。 我们也会在Apple Podcasts和Spotify上传播视频，但是，它感觉相对稳定。

我总是想知道更换YouTube需要什么？许多公司都试图取代YouTube，但为了做到这一点，你不仅需要建立一种对创作者更好，对用户更好的体验，而且还需要replicate来完成人类的整个视觉体。 你得从水管工那里得到六百万个视频说明如何修复每个水槽然后上传到那里这真的很难取代。 这对许多人来说是如此的根深蒂固

但很久以前我问Google首席执行官Sundar Pichai:「如果再没有网站，他喜欢，“嗯，我们有YouTube。” 并没有什么争论。 当然它只会继续增长。

从《纽约时报》到人们可能称之为创造经济，有什么令人惊讶的？

但至今我还是很惊讶我有多喜欢所有生意。 在新闻界，你总是被教导留在你的车道上，我从来没有经营过生意。 凯西有生意我知道他很喜欢但对我来说，这些是新肌肉，我并不享受所有肌肉。 就我们的诽谤保险条款进行谈判并不是我所认为的强迫的但是，关于实际经营一个企业，这个创始人的东西。

是啊，这是个好时机。 与你、凯西、乔安娜(Casey和Joanna)交谈，从我的观点来看，这就是为什么我做了很长时间。 如果我停止经营生意呢？这似乎不是一个选择。 这就是媒体的未来——控制你的生意，控制你的观众。 那里有非常强大的东西。

我想谈的一件事，然后我绝对想详细谈论这本书，就是AI报道的观众，因为我从两个方面来看待它。 有一群人建造了喜欢的东西，有一群人真的讨厌它

接下来，我要称之为在中间扩大的集团，在那里，产品变得更加有用。 你必须看他们并评价他们。 几年前它们并没有太大的用处。 承诺与现实不符，但AI能做以前无法做的事情，观众似乎在改变。

你觉得机器之神的观众如何成长或改变？

现在，我们只是尝试一些我们认为会很好的东西，我们希望它能找到自然的观众。 但我认为你是对的，观众正在改变。 我想有一阵子人们对应付的需求很大，基本上人们告诉你

互联网的某些部分仍然存在。 而Reddit也非常反AI。 但我认为大多数人，或者说至少是多元的人，要么辞职，要么对这件事情不会消失感到兴奋。 这就是我们要找的观众。

我们并不想告诉你AI是惊人的，我们也不告诉你这些东西是假的，凯西的说法是AI现实主义。 他认为有一大群人只是好奇和感兴趣，也许有些害怕，但他们对恐惧的反应不是试图把头埋入沙中，而是试图理解事情。

当我们做"硬叉"的时候，我们开始感觉到这一点，在那里，我们将做一些似乎不是我们的感觉的事情。 我们将做Claude Code走行部辅导在那里，我们将只花费半小时建立一个网站并拍摄我们自己并把它扔出去，它会做得很好。 人们显然很好奇，即使影片上的评论都是来自那些讨厌AI的人

“我恨我不能停止看这个节目”

让我们谈谈

本文由 AI宝库自动抓取并翻译，版权归原作者所有；如需查看原文请点下方链接。

Today, I’m talking to Kevin Roose, journalist and author of the new book The AGI Chronicles, which details the recent and explosive transformation of the AI industry.

Kevin Roose is AGI-pilled. Why aren’t you?

The author of The AGI Chronicles and co-host of Machine Gods on going all-in on YouTube and the AI race.

Kevin was a longtime New York Times reporter and host of the popular podcast Hard Fork, but he and friend of the show Casey Newton just left the Times to start the all-new tech podcast Machine Gods, which launched last week.

Kevin and I talked about launching Machine Gods and what it’s like to go from The New York Times to being an independent creator — and then of course we talked about the book, which is an excellently reported dive into the companies racing to build artificial general intelligence.

I wanted to get a sense from Kevin of what it was like to report this, to try and understand these characters and this moment in time, and where it all goes next. Fair warning: This conversation takes a pretty philosophical turn at the end, but I think you’ll find it a really worthwhile back-and-forth.

Okay: Kevin Roose on The AGI Chronicles, starting Machine Gods, and where AI goes from here. Here we go.

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Kevin Roose, you are the author of The AGI Chronicles and the cofounder and co-host of the new podcast Machine Gods. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks so much for having me.

I was listening to the first episode of Machine Gods and you and Casey discussed the fact that technically you have the title of CEO.

It’s true. I won the coin flip and we needed someone. When you start a company as we have, you need to list someone as the CEO, I guess, to know who to haul in front of Congress when our first scandal inevitably breaks. So that’s going to be me.

It’s funny because you’re a CEO on Decoder. It means I’m going to have to ask you the Decoder questions.

[Laughs] Okay. Well, I’ve been a CEO for about five minutes and most days I frankly forget I’m the CEO.

Honestly, that tracks with most of the CEOs on the show. They all act like they’ve only done it for five minutes. We’ll come to it.

I want to talk about your book. It’s called The AGI Chronicles. It is a meticulously reported book about the main frontier labs and the culture shift they’ve all undergone as AI has come into the forefront and become a much more commercial product in many ways.

But let’s just start with Machine Gods. You were a journalist for The New York Times for a long time. Obviously, I think the audience probably knows this, but you and I have known each other for a long time. I will say that since I have known you, your desire to be a YouTuber has been top of mind. You’re just like, “How do I get over there?” And I’ve always been like, “Run, don’t do it.” But you did it.

You left The Times, you started your own podcast with our friend Casey Newton. It is the next generation of the very popular podcast, Hard Fork, which was excellent. And I’m excited for you, but what made you take the leap?

Verge subscribers, don’t forget you get exclusive access to ad-free Decoder wherever you get your podcasts. Head here. Not a subscriber? You can sign up here.

Yeah, you have been trying to convince me out of this for as long as I’ve been trying to convince myself into it and you have not succeeded because here I am.

Yep, I failed. Utterly failed.

No, look, I think that for some very good reasons, media companies have long been a little bit wary of going all in on YouTube or any other video platform. The ones that have gone all in have not necessarily come out of that with good feelings about it because there are a lot of–

Yeah, they pivot to video and also into death, routinely.

Yeah, you pivot to video or you sort of waste a bunch of money doing things that don’t pay for themselves. So, I think there are some structural economic reasons for that, but I also think it’s that there aren’t a lot of institutions that are equipped to make that kind of a long-term bet.

I’ve been trying to YouTube-pill people in media for many years, as you know. You’ve been trying to undo the YouTube-pilling on your end, but I just think it’s clearly the most important media platform in the world right now. It’s a place where journalism has not historically had a central place.

If you were to look at YouTube as a whole and try to assess what piece of it is dedicated to what you or I would consider high-quality journalism, it’s a vanishingly small part of the overall ecosystem there.

So, part of my mission is just to crack that and figure out how to do YouTube and video in general in a way that is sustainable from an economic and a sort of creative standpoint. And then just to experiment and do a bunch of things.

This is not a face that needs to be on YouTube. So I’m also hoping to bring some other people in and nail some formats. But I look at what The Verge has done there. I look at what people like Joanna Stern and MKBHD have done there. To me, that is very exciting and it’s a space where there’s a lot less competition than text or podcasts.

Machine Gods is a podcast that you’re doing in partnership with NPR, which I want to talk about. But do you think of it as a YouTube product?

We want it to be video-first. What that means basically is that we are going to give a shit about what it looks like to a degree that we have not always done. We’re going to try to give people a lot of reasons to want to watch as well as listen.

Obviously, we know that there are some people who just don’t like video podcasts and so we want to give the audio audience something that is enjoyable, but this is the direction of things. You can’t do a podcast now without doing video on top of it. So we’re going to try to really embrace that and make a good version of it that is as good as two middle-aged journalists can pull off on YouTube.

Truly the future of media is middle-aged journalists pivoting to YouTube. I feel the same way because I’m now making more video and that’s what we’re doing. It’s going to be great.

The other reason to leave and to do this — and obviously people know I’m friends with Casey as well, and I’ve been talking to you and him about it for a long time — is that the AI story is here. There is a platform shift. There are new companies, new characters, new ideas to talk about in the world. It’s funny because in that context, usually you get a media shift as well. The way we tell stories or the formats we tell stories usually shifts alongside the thing we are talking about or the technology we’re talking about.

Here, YouTube feels like the most solid media foundation that exists. It’s the one that’s the same the most, even though it’s changing and it has YouTube Shorts and now you can A/B test everything, including your own face. But it’s the one that is the most the same. Instagram has undergone some massive change and it feels like that will continue happening.

Does it feel like YouTube is the most stable place to build as you’re trying to tell these new stories?

It does. I mean, obviously you never want to put all your eggs in one basket. So, we are also distributing video on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and we’re going to be everywhere. But yeah, it feels relatively stable.

The question I’m always wondering is what would it take to replace YouTube? Many companies have tried to replace YouTube, but to do that, you would not only have to build an experience that was better for creators and better for users, but you would also have to replicate the entire visual corpus of humanity. You would have to just get six million videos from plumbers about how to fix every individual sink and then upload it to that. It’s a really hard thing to displace. It is so ingrained for so many people, and I just think it’s going to keep growing.

We’ll come to this when we talk about AI, but a long time ago I asked Google CEO Sundar Pichai, “Well, what are you going to do if there’s no more websites?” And he was kind of like, “Well, we have YouTube.” And there’s just no arguing with that. You sure do. And it is just going to keep growing.

What has been the most surprising thing about going from The New York Times to what you might call the creator economy?

Well, we’re very new at it, but surprising to me so far is how much I like all the business stuff. I think in journalism, you’re always taught to stay in your lane, and I have never run a business before. Casey has run a business. I knew he enjoyed it. But for me, these are new muscles and I don’t enjoy all of it. Negotiating the insurance quotes for our defamation coverage is not what I would feel compelled by. But regarding actually running a business, there is something to this founder thing.

Yeah, it’s a good time. It’s funny, in talking to you and to Casey and Joanna, who also just left and started her own thing, that comes up a lot. From my perspective, it’s why I’ve been doing this a long time. What if I stopped running the business? That doesn’t seem to be a choice. This is the future of media — taking control of your business and taking control of your audience. There’s something very powerful there.

One of the things I want to talk about, and then I definitely want to talk about the book at length, is the audience for AI coverage, because I see it in two ways. There’s a group of people building the stuff that loves it and wants to consume all of it. There’s a group of people that truly hates it and thinks all of it is fake.

And then there’s what I would call an expanding group in the middle where the products have become more useful. You have to look at them and evaluate them as they are. They were not terribly useful a couple years ago. The promises did not match reality, but every day now it can do one more thing that it couldn’t do before. Whether that thing is hacking all of the websites in the world, we’ll set that aside, but AI can do things it couldn’t do before and the audience seems to be changing.

How are you thinking about the audience for Machine Gods and how it might grow or change?

I mean, right now we’re just trying a bunch of stuff that we think will be good and we hope that it will find its sort of natural audience. But I think you’re right that the audience is changing. I think for a while there was a lot of demand for cope — basically people telling you this is not happening, you don’t have to pay attention to it, it sucks, it’s hurting the environment.

There still is in some parts of the internet. YouTube has a weird amount of this still going on and Reddit is also very anti-AI. But I think most people, or at least maybe a plurality of people, are either resigned to or excited about the fact that this is not going away. That is the audience that we’re looking for.

We’re not trying to tell you that AI is amazing and we’re going to be in AI utopia under the new machine regime. We’re also not telling you that this stuff is fake and sucks and is going to go away on its own and so we don’t need to do anything to regulate it or be worried about it. Casey’s phrase for this is AI realism. He thinks there’s a big chunk of people who are just sort of curious and interested and maybe a little scared, but their reaction to the fear is not to try to bury their heads in the sand, but to try to understand the thing.

So we started feeling this when we were doing Hard Fork where we would do something that just seemed kind of not our vibe. We would do a Claude Code walkthrough tutorial where we would just spend half an hour building a website and film ourselves and throw it up and it would do great. So people clearly were curious, and even if the comments on the videos were all from people who hated AI, there was clearly a lot of demand out there for people who were just like, “I kind of want to know what’s going on.”

“I hate that I can’t stop watching this” is a real theme inside of AI coverage for a variety of reasons.

Let’s talk about th

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